TO THE EDITOR OF THE TIMES

SlB^

I am a constant reader of your very valuable paper, and as I consider it not only an uncorrupted channel for collecting and diffusing information^ but also a powerful médium of ënlightening, tbe public and promoting public discussion, it would be higbiy gratifying to me to find in yourcolumns some notice of tbe récent work whicb I hare published, under tbe title of '^ Catholicism in Alistriai or, an Epitome of tbe Austrian Ecclesiastical Law; with a Dissertation upon tbe Rigbts and Duties of tbe Englisb Government witb respect to tbe Catbolics of Irelaud/*

But altbougb I am désirons of tbis flattering notice, yçt tbe idea of eliciting ^ny eulogium from you does not enter înto my mind. My only wisb is to obtain your impartial judgment upon my work, and by tbis means to bave tbe cbance of promoting tbe discussion of tbe catbolic question in a point of view différent from tbose in wbicb it bas been considered up to tbe présent moment; and tbus to venture tbe experiment, wbetber tbis new mode of treating tbe

c^tbolic question might not probably lead to a satUfactory and final conclusion.

The System, recommended by me^ the theory of . which I hâve delineated in the dissertation^ and the practical model of which I hâve exhibited in the Ëpitome of the Austrian loLW ; this System, I say, is, as far as my knowledge of the question extend^, totally new in this country. I am perfectly sensible of the propriety of that Une of conduct which is now ^opted by the friends of catholic émancipation,-— namely, that of postponing any f urther discussion of the measure, of waiting for better times, and expectipg ail the advantages accruing from the liberality of the new Administration*^. But if this course be expédient for a time, it is easy to gerçeive that mère silence and inaction will finally produce nothing; that discussion, in one shape or another, must finally be resumed ^ and that some appropriate and effectuai means xpxï&t be finally resorted to, for th,e attainment of an object po long procrastinated and disputed. If you will condescend to afford even a sli^ht attention to the outline of my plan, you will find that it is a concili^tory plan at least, and consequently that it is of such a nature as to be properly investigated at the présent time, which I may designate a time of truce, in order^ if possible, to couvert this truce into a perfect state of perpétuai pe;^ce.

The Morning Càroniçle of the 4th instant n^ntioning my work^ observes that many things may be done in Austria

* Ceci était écrit dans le tems du ministère de M, Canning, dans lequel il paraissait à peu près convenu auprès d*un grand nombre des partisans des catholiques» de laisser le tens au nouveau ministère de respirer, et de voir ensiiite de quelle manière, et quand, il pourrait lui-même proposer la mesure de relever les car thoUques de toutes les incapacités, qui pèsent eneore sur eux, fLvec Ane perspective de succès. (Note ajoutée à Toccasion de <Sfkt

wbich cannot easily be done in this kingdom ; bot froœ this proposition^ thus lightly Idd down^ 1 must conclude that the writer of that article bas cast only a superficial glance over my performance ; for, on the contrary supposi^ tion, he would hâve seen this very objection anticipated at pp. 173, 174, and removedat pp. 196, and the ioUowing. Why has he not, moreover, distinctly specified what are thèse things not to be easily done in this country which are 80 easily effected in Austria ? And why has he given no rea* son for the différence? For my own part, I am, on the contrary, fuUy convinced that the constitution of England îs equaily capable bf adopting every good and salutary institution whatsoever, and of imposing any restraint which might be deemed usefui; still more so, if such restraint be considered necessary for the public welfare.

But, since my work has been published, my opinions hàre been more powerfully corroborated by the perusal of a very interesting letter written by the celebrated Mr. Pitt to his late Majesty, and which you hâve inserted in your papér of the 13th instant. In this letter that able minister afiStrms, that the admission of catholics to offices and Parliament would, under certain conditions to be specified, be higbly advisable ; that the measure would be attended with no danger to the established church, or to the protestant interest in Great Britain or Ireland, with the new provisions which would make part of Jiie plan 3 that those principles, formerly held by the catholics, which made them be considered as politically dangerous, hâve been, for a course of time, gradually declining, and among the higher orders particularly, they hâve ceased toprevail; that the obnoxious tenets are disclaimedin the most positive manner by the oaths which hâve been required in Great Britain, and still more by those required in Ireland^ as the condition, of the indulgences already granted, and which might equàlly be -made the condition of any new ones ', that the political circumstances under which the

estclasire laws originid;ed, arising either ffom thé conflicting powerof hostile and nearly balanced sectSj from the appréhension of a popish queen^ or successor^ a disputed succession^ and a foreign pretender, and a division in Europe between catholic and protestant powers, are no longer applicable to the présent state of tfaings; that^ with respect to the catholics of Ireland, another most important additional security,' and one of which the eflect would continually increase^ might be provided, by gradually attaching the popish clergy to the government, and for this purpose making liiem dépendent for a part of their provision (ander proper régulations) on the state, and by also suligecting tiiem to Buperintendence and control ; that, besides thèse provifiions, the gênerai interest of the established church, and •the security of the constitution and government, might be effectually strengliiened by requiring the political test befbre referred to, from the preachers of ail catholic and dissenting -congrégations, and from the teachers of schools of every dénomination. Nôw, from ail thèse passages, the foUowing conclusions may be distinctly deduced :

1. TfaatMr. Pitt was certainly a friend to émancipation, but tfaat he was at the same time an opponent of the un- ^quaHfied and uncQndttiond concession now so loudiy daimed Bnd demanded : and this important distinction very clearly results from thèse expressions—*^ under certain conditions to be specified" — " with the new provisions which would mahe a part of the plan," &c.

2. That in his idea thèse conditions or provi^ons must be of two sorts ; some, dépendent on an individuàl act of every catholic admitted to the fuU enjoyment of civil and political rights ; 'and such are the oaths required in Gréât Britain and in Ireland, as the condition of the indulgences aiready granted, and which, says he, might equally be made the condition of any new ones. Some others are of such a nature, that théir opération Ueîs éntirely in the exécution of appropriate law's

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«oactod upoB the sobject ; and thèse he firBt indicates gènerally^ by the appellation of^^new provisions whtch would make a part of the plan/' and subsequently exemplifies them^ by 8a]|^ng, tbat aa^^^ additional seeurity would be to make the Popii^ clergy dépendent fora part of their provision, under propev régulations, on the state ;'' that another seeurity woidd also be obtained ^^ in subjecting them to superintendence and control :*' and hère, although Mr. Pitt does not eifress to whom this^ superîntendence- aùd control should be assignedy it is, aevertheless, évident that he could hâve no other thaa< the government in view for the fulfilment of thk task; so» that, according to his ideas, the goverament should become, by the proposed new provisions, the head of Catholicism, asto its extemal policy at least, since he màkes no exceptions to, nor imposes any restraint whatever ovec, the objeets of the superintendence and control whicfahe mentions ; and since also the right of superintendence and control, unless supposed to be nugatory and ridiculous, implies the right of giving orders and issuing prohibitions, and that a political test should also be required from the preachers aswell as from the teachers of every dénomination — -assigning, coaseqi^ently, to the government, both an inspection of, and direction over, this great and principal part of every worship, w^iich consists of preaching, and also over publicinstruction; for it would be extremely absurd and contradîctor)', should the gpvemment content itseif with a mechanical pronounciation once made of any political test whatsoever, and not watch over the piactical observance, either in preaching^or teaehingy ofthe maxims expvesdedin that test.

3. That frdiA ali thèse data considered together, it clearly appears that Mr. Pitt, an the one hand, wa» fully convinced that new conditions and provisions of the législature wouId in&lUbly .suoceed ia rendering Catholicism innoxious to the civil and religiousliberties of -this country, and equally so to

tbe Protestant intere&t ; aad that on the other hand, lio had not yet made out and raatiired in hio ndnd a plan of thèse conditions and provisions $ which construction perfectly coïncides with what Lord Eldon recently said at the Pitt Club (on the anniversary held on the 28th of May nlt., with référence to the toast given of Protestant ascendancy) that h< (Lord EIddn) could never obtâin from Mn Pitt any adéquate expkmation of what were his secorities for the préservation of the Protestant constitution! in the event of Oatholic eman^ cîpation being carried*. *

4. That Mr. Pitt eqaally entertained the opinion, that the measure of émancipation would be attended with danger to the established church, and to the Protestant interest, if it should be granted singly, and without those conditions and new provisions which he only pointed ont in gênerai teriâs.

- " ' ■ * I ■■!■ I ■ Il .1 > I I ■ I I ■■!■*» Il « I l

* Lord Redesdale attesta toat de même an jour dans la cham<* bre des Lords^ avoir enténda M. Pitt dire» vers la fin de sa vie, qn*il n'avak encore pu satisfaire ton esprit à l'égard des sûretés qn^il fallait exiger des catholiques pour leur accorder tous les droits fwlitiques, dont jouissent les protestans* C'est ce que j'extrais d'un discours prononcé au Meeting de Fermanagh par le Dr. Millet, et que j'ai lu inséré dans le Standard du 13 Janvier 18S9* D'où il faut conclure, deux choses ; l. que Pitt ne faisait plis le plas petit doate, qu'il ne fallait pas accorder de nouveaux droits pdîtiques aux eafthcdiques sans cessûretés^-qu'il les regardait itene, comme trés-essentaellts» et non pas comaie oiseuses et près* que dégradantes, amsi que le» chefs du parti catholique se plai- •SBt à les qualifier aoîêurd'hui ; e. qife ces sftretés doivent être rdbjet de profondes méditatioas, qu'elles doivent être coordonnée^ ensemble^ etc., etc. L'esquisse qu'il en donne dans sa lettre aa ni George Ul est excellente: il y a» à mon avis> les semences de ce» sages règiemenê spéeiaux eivihp dont faire sentir la né* cessité argenté, est tout l'objet dç mon ouvrage* (Note ajoutée â Toecai^oa de ce même ouvrage.)

5. That Mr. Pitt did not make the least mention of any concordat with the Popey not of any underatanding with the Irisfa Catholic bishops, so far from considering such arrangement as necessary parts of his plan ; and that if he, on the one hand, wished déclarations to be made and oaths to be taken by every Catholic, as securities against pernicioua doctrines, he did not, on tlie other, rely entirely upon them ;. but he required, in addition, firmer and immovable securities^. proceeding from the opération of certain provisions of the législature, and, among others, from the dependence of the clergy on' the government for their subsistence, from the snperintendence and control to which he intended that thèse should be habitually subjected ; and lastly, from a certain direction to be given to preaching in the churches, and to instruction in the schools.

AU thèse ideas were clearly settled in that elevated, provident, and comprehensive mihd, at a time, and under eircumstances, which appeàred to faim, and were actually, very favourable. But it must be particularly observed, that when Mr. Pitt wrote to the late King (Jan. 1801), the power of the Pope, both temporal and spiritual,* was rapidly declining, without a plausible prospect of resuscitation*,-^

* C*est ce qui faisait dire au docteur Johnson en son tems: ** Those who can cry popery in the présent times» would hav« cried Pire ! Pire ! in the tiiiles of the dolnge." Johnson mourut en 1784. S'il avait encore vécu, il aurait été témoin et d'un plus grand déclin encore, et d^une nouvelle élévation. De pli» grands hommes que Johnson, sont tombés dans l'erreur de croire impossi* ble que des choses ou institutions aacieBBes, une- fois passées, re» paraissent sur la scène du monde. ' Pitt croyait également (Jiie les circonstances politiques, qui avaient donné lieu aux lois pénales contre les catholiques étant changées^ elles ne se seraient plus reproduites. Cette prévoyance cependant ne le poussait pas si loin

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that a few months after the aaid letter was written (namely, in July of the same year), the celebrated concordat with Napoléon was concluded ; — that the ultramontaneK maxims had almost every where èubsided, or kept themselves concealed^ either in France» or in the extensive countries thea Bubject to her power or influence; — that the dbnoxious doctrines were in no part of Europe even màintained, so far from being publicly inculc.ated or taùght, as they now are once more ; — ^that no récent example existed of seandalous changes of opinions» of shameful recantations» such as we bave witnessed since 1814» in many catholic prêtâtes» priests» statesmen» and innumerable private individuals ;— »that the Jesuits» and other classes of monks» were not resuscitated» nor had they swarmed in erery direction ;— «that the catholic influence had neither again invaded public and private temporalities in a great part of the continent» nor had it contracted so close an alliance with despotism as at the present*^ period; — that» finally» the struggle between absolute and constitutionalgovernments was not so violent and dangerous as it now is» menacing as it does even the existence of the latter» it being notorious to the world that an intimate connexion exists between the civil and the religious libertiefe of mankind. For the détails of the présent state of things being immensely différent from what prevailed at the time of Mr. Pitt's letter, I bave only to refer to the contents of the Dissertation*» especially to pages 183 and the foUowing

à proposer d*admettre de nouveau les catholiques à une pleine jouis* sance des droits civils et politiques à Tégal des protestans sans de grandes précautions, et ces précautions (ce qui est fort à remarquer) ne devaient pas être, dans son opinion, seulement temporaires. (Note ajoutée à l'occasion de cet ouvrage.)

* Cette dissertation (ait partie du '' CathoKcism in Âusrtria.*' {Note ajoutée â roecasion de cet ouvrage).

XXVHl

iu wbidi un account is given of tke negoUnlionB which latdy took place betwéen the coart pf Rome and the courta gi Niqdaa and Turin.

Frooi aU the .abore obaerTatioBB the neceasary censé* quenoe to be inferred is, that if in Mr. Pitt*8 time the maintenance of the oaths by whicb obnoxioaa doctrines are disdaimed, aa well aa the enactment of wise provisions by the legislaturci were considered indispensable for the relief <)f the eatbolics, they nmst be regarded equally so at Ae furesent time ; and that if the salutary effiect of thèse jwgttlations was deemed, at the ssdd epoch^ so unquestionafale^ that the relief with thèse conditions and provisions would be considerad highly advisable, and aa a meaaure required by strict justice^ the same proposition haa not ceaaed to be trae at the présent day*

The entire catholic question, therefore, should, in my opiniop, be now confined to the securities. It is in fact the main question, perhaps the only question ; since the scde objeetion ujged against the relief of the catholics by.its most enlightened opponents-^those who are bona fide such,-«-iS) that they do not see, in gcanting it, sufficient securities for tbe protestant interest and for the English constitution. Wheoce, it may fiedrly be concluded, that if they can once arrive at a conviction t^t theae securities not only may exist, but that they may easily be obtained, as they are not made dépendent on the whims and fancies of individuala, but rest entirely in the hands of the législature, whenever it chooses to possess them ; it must be hoped, that, with this conviction in their minds, they will shew themselves ready to give their cordial consent to the relief of the catholics. But this possibility] of^sufficient securities which I mention— >the facility of procuring them — the importance of their efficacy, as well as the resolving of another question— -vizs whether the new régulations partly or entirely should précède or only accompany the grant of this relief^^all thooe points

cannot, evidently, be ascertained, except by first laying down a distinct and well concerted plan of thèse conditions and provisions, and by a subséquent accurate discussion of thetn ail, both coliectively and individually considered. Never as yet bas the catholic question bcen treated in this manner, nor even considered in this point of view.

Should you, therefore, Mr. Ëditor, find thèse remarks worthy of your attention, you wiU, perhaps, lay them before the public, and give this tum (which bas uovelty at least to recommend it) to the discussion of this important question. At ail events, it will be an experiment, which, if it fail .of saccess, will at least be innoxious ; it may likewise, perhaps, suggest Bome more valuable ideas to some person of eminence, among the numeroua friends of the catholics.

I hâve the honour to be, etc., .

COUNT DAL PoZZO.

S7, Régentas Quadrant, June 22.